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Full Transcript:

Note: This is an automated transcript and misspells or grammar errors may be present.

Hey everyone. Thanks for listening to this episode.

Hey guys. Today we are talking about a relevant issue, a very popular docu series on Amazon right now called Shiny Happy People. You’ve probably seen it shared from other people’s podcasts, things like that. We’ve been getting a lot of questions, and so we watch the docu series and in today’s podcast we’re kind of doing a little review of what we noticed and talking about some really important topics, tons.

Of practical information. We believe this is very helpful and so it’s longer, but truly listen to the whole thing.

Yeah, we are going to be talking about patriarchy, the Quiverfull movement, as well as some of the important lessons to take away from this docu series and what has been exposed in it. So I hope you guys are encouraged by today’s podcast.

Welcome to Courageous Parenting Podcast, a weekly show to equip parents with biblical truth on raising confident Christian kids in an uncertain world.

Hi, I’m Angie from Courageous Mom.

And Isaac from Resolute Man Together pursuing the mission to impact 10 million families and their legacies for the Kingdom of God.

We’ve been married for 23 years and are seeing the fruit from raising our nine children Biblically. Based on the raw truth found in the Bible.

We can no longer let the culture win the hearts of children, as too many from Christian families are walking away from their faith by the age of 18. And it doesn’t have to be this way. It shouldn’t be this way.

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If you want access to all the episodes, show notes and other biblically based resources. Go to be courageous ministry.org.

Join us as we start another important conversation about effective parenting in a fallen world. Hi everyone. Welcome to the podcast.

Hey guys.

So interesting episode today. Guess one of the benefits of shooting in real time. I mean, we usually shoot this a day before it comes out. That’s right.

So we’re going to be talking well, actually, today is a podcast response, if you will, to a docu series that’s really popular right now. You may have heard of it or seen it talked about in other podcasts called Shining Happy People. It’s a docu series on Amazon that’s top rated right now. Lots of people are watching it. Christian, not Christian. I’m sure it’s all over the place.

Well, this has become part of in our focus because a lot of messages came to us, people asking, have you seen it? And then further than that, we got some negativity, too. Were you part of it? Skepticism, things like that. And it’s like, wow, that’s interesting.

Interesting how stereotyping can be dangerous. Right. And this is one of the things that has always frustrated me. When you have a large family or you homeschool or you homestead or any of those things, then automatically people will think that you’re part of something, even if you aren’t.

We have one too many home things.

Well, my heart is in my home. What can I say? So I’m not going to apologize for that. No.

But but yeah, this is a response to that. But we thought and we prayed and we discussed how can we make this conversation edifying to the larger body of Christ? How can we make this episode practically helpful and give some biblical perspectives on what’s happening? And while we can’t speak to the movement depicted the bill Gothard Movement and any of those things because we didn’t know about it, we didn’t know of him, we had heard his name before, but we actually thought it was part of some music thing.

It’s kind of a funny story if you are familiar with the Gaither family. When someone mentioned him, I literally thought they were talking about Bill Gaither. That’s part of the Southern Gospel Music Group, but they’re totally two different people, apparently.

Maybe so Maybe this is part of, you know, we’re first generation and a lot of things that we’re doing. I became a believer when I was 23 years old. And, you know, I had to learn everything about marriage, about being a father and all those things. But I was a learner. And but we didn’t learn anything from Bill Gothard or this whole movement. But we do have something to say about it.

Yeah, and it’s interesting. If you guys follow us, we’ve done a couple past podcast episodes, got to just kind of prompted us. We were just thinking, Hey, you know, I don’t know if we’ve ever shared our history on church or our the history of the last 23 years of parenting or homeschooling or homeschooling journey. Have we ever shared just our homeschooling journey? And so the last three episodes have been those you guys. So if you have any questions regarding where we stand on any of those things, please go listen to those podcasts today. We won’t have a lot of time to dive into those things, but we do share transparently about like the fact that we weren’t homeschooled and how we learned to homeschool and even shared some books that were encouraging to me when I first was getting started or thinking about it.

Which is really ironic because the episode Shiny Happy People came out June 1st and we shot the two of those origin story episodes much prior to June 1st in this last one was right after. But you know, so anyways, God has already prompted us to do all three of them. And it just so happens it’s helpful to give people perspective.

About the ministry. And, you know, I think it’s not just perspective on us, but one of the principles that we’ve actually taught here that we we believe is wise, biblically wise, in in the Word of God. We know many times that Jesus uses fruit as an example in teaching people to discern and to judge rightly. He uses a fig tree as an example and says, Can good fruit or bad fruit come from the same tree? And, you know, so there’s many different teachings and scripture we talk about John. John, 14, is one of my favorites. The vine and the branches abiding in him. There’s so many different scriptures that we’ve used over the years just in talking and teaching people about how we’ve been careful in discerning who we learn from and and that and so forth. So, you know, we’ve practiced that as far as what virtual mentors, if you will, because books are virtual mentors in a sense. Someone has written them and they have a past, a history, they have fruit in their life, whether it’s good or bad. And and you may not be able to tell if you’ve never met that person or walked with them in life. And and I think that this whole event or this whole what has been exposed through this docu series really proves that it’s important to have those in real life relationships with people where you are walking with them and hopefully in walking with them, you can see the truth. Now, the reality is, is some people hide things right and some people are not fully transparent with the truth regarding their their marriage or their. A family. But but I want to exhort you guys that that you should always be the same as you are in public. As you are in private. That’s what we have strived to be. We strive to be transparent here on this podcast and our parenting mentor program in the app on social media, we’re just the same. Like we’re an open book. We are who we are. We’re not, we’re not perfect. And I would.

Say even talking about your miscarriages to our business loss or big financial disaster in past and the lessons from that, even defamation against us and us fighting that and how that went. And we definitely.

Don’t sweep things under the rug.

Our political opinions, our opinions all during Covid about Covid and vaccinations and things like that, that even people listening right now might disagree with. We got messages like, I disagree with you because you took that stance on vaccinations, tyranny we see happening in the world. We’re willing to talk about it. We’re willing to talk about this. We will talk about things even if it costs us if we feel like it’s the right thing to talk about. This seems like a very important conversation. Our heart goes out to people harmed by the movement. But there’s, I believe, millions of people that were part of it learning and so forth over, I think, 40 years. They did a little research. The bill Gothard was doing, his ministry. And so, you know, we only know one side to the story. We only know what’s in this docu series. So I just want to say that that, hey, we’re going to speak to what we saw, but we fully don’t know very much, right?

I mean, we don’t know what was taught. The docu series reveals that there was a teaching booklets. I think he called them wisdom booklets as well as a home school curriculum of some sort. No, we’ve never used those. If you’re just curious. Nope. Never bought them. Never heard of them. Although I will say I have heard of the acronym RTI. We did know someone way back in our past who was a teenager who was going to a summer camp, and she shared that she was going to be gone to a summer camp doing this sort of thing, but didn’t know anything about it. Our kids were far from close to that age to ever participate in something like that. And I just really look over the years and I’m thankful because I feel like God actually protected us from a lot. But at the same time, I looked at the docu series and I honestly said, I don’t think we would have I know we wouldn’t have ever participated in that because we aren’t the type of people that conform. I don’t know if you’ve captured that from our podcast recently, but we’re we’re pretty skeptical. We usually do our research before we jump into anything. We’re we, we’re, we’re definitely not slow to be compliant.

We’re definitely we’re definitely not perfect, though, that’s for sure. And nobody is perfect. And, and so it’s important to do that, to think about that. But we are completely open books. Just a further note on that. If you’re in the Be Courageous app, you know, we do monthly lives where you can ask us anything and people do. We even record every single one of them unedited, put them in a library and it’s just beautiful to be able to do ministry where you can be completely transparent, completely yourself. This would be way too hard to do otherwise. Did you know every episode there’s a video that goes with it that are unedited? Right? So, you know, we’re just literally talking week after week for two, almost 250 weeks now in a row. That’s crazy. Sharing the podcast, we’ve got four courses out there and the ministry is something that God has called us to. As hard as it is at times when people attack us unfairly. Right?

So let’s talk about we’re in this podcast, we’re just going to do a brief overview of some of the trigger issues that are talked about in this docu series. Um, and we’re going to explain some of the things that we, we noticed and saw. The reason why we’re talking about this, like Isaac said, is because some people have come to us. But even if those people hadn’t come to us asking questions about our opinions on it, it still would be a relevant thing that I think that we would speak to simply because of these trigger issues like patriarchy, the Quiverfull movement, which obviously wasn’t spoken about in the docu series, but because it was largely about the Duggar family, they definitely represent that movement. And there are things that we are vehemently against, I guess you could say or are not in agreement with. We’ll talk about those today. We’re also going to talk to you guys about just we want to equip. Right like that. Truly, this is not an assessment. This is not a gossip column. This is not we’re not going to try to bring things out. But really, we want to talk about something that is important for every parent, and that is that we rise up and we be responsible in discerning truth and being wise about the resources that we use and who we allow to influence us and that we need to equip our children in how to do that themselves.

Amen. And we’re not to operate in fear. And that’s part of the reason we can be completely transparent is because when these things happen, we don’t fear talking about it at all. And God says we’re not to fear anything in this world at all. And if anybody uses fear as a way to influence or. To manipulate. That is a sign that there may be something wrong because we’re not to. In fact, in John first John 418 it says 418 It says, sorry about that right here. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out. Fear for fear has to do with punishment. And whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us.

That’s such a comforting verse. And yet it’s truth. It’s biblical truth. And that really brings up another topic that I just want to make sure that we’re really clear on. Isaac and I throughout the different resources that we try to provide through courageous parenting or be courageous ministry, if you will, you can find out more at be courageous ministry.org. We have courses, we have this podcast, we have the Parenting mentor program. Of course, there’s the blogs and our social media posts. And in all of those things we try to be really clear when we’re giving our opinion on something and when we’re just speaking biblical truth and we’re reading to you from Scripture, of course, within that there’s going to be us sharing transparently about the things that God has taught us over the years, specifically when Scripture convicts us on something. And so by no means do we think that you need to be parenting identical to us. That’s not how we go about things. It’s not prescriptive for every parent. In fact, I think that that would be weird. And I think that if anything, this whole topic, I think that, you know, in the discerning. We’re going to talk about that a little bit in a minute. One of the other aspects that we want to talk about is this danger in putting somebody or ministry or anything on a pedestal, because we have seen that in other things, like with pastors being put in church discipline or being fired. I mean, we’ve been I’ve been Christian my whole life. And so I have definitely seen that happen in churches before. And it’s sad when people get led astray or they they stop believing in God because of something that a man did and or didn’t do.

Yeah. When you’re following somebody too closely that might be an idol and it might be jeopardizing your relationship, your ability to discern with God, and that’s most important. And so you don’t want to have any idols in your life. And if someone falls and is causing you to question your faith, that might have been a reason for that right there, which could be.

Yes. So let’s talk about this show. This show definitely depicted the Duggar family. They had a daughter sharing a testimony. I know that a different daughter recently came out with a book, although I haven’t read it. I have seen little sound bites of podcast interviews that she’s done with other people. So clearly, this is there is older children speaking out against how they were being raised, specifically influenced by Bill Gothard and his teachings. Although we don’t really know a lot of what those teachings were other than what was shared in this docu series. So we are just going to talk about a few of the ones that we saw. But one of the things that we definitely noticed, which Isaac just read a verse on fear, he definitely used the tactic of fear.

It appeared that way. I mean, at least the show made it look that way. Um, you know, in James, you know, when we’re teaching, it’s pretty important. James three one says, Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. And so it is really important to us, always has been that as we teach that we’re keeping that in mind. We’re going to be held to account. And anybody in the age of information overload, many people being experts or calling themselves experts, putting information out there, it actually is important to know where that’s coming from, what people believe, is it biblical or is it getting in the weeds or, as we would say, the ditches on either side, the ditches of legalism and or there’s the ditch of moral relativism and then there’s the road, the biblical road. We all are probably listening. All are trying to be on and stay on. And if we’re not careful, we can veer off into the ditch. And if we’re parents, we’re going to take our children with us. And it is so important this this show that came out just brought that back in front of us. We’ve always believed this, but back in front of us of just echoing how important it is to make sure as leaders in our family that we are on the solid road.

That’s right. That we’re not following one person or that we’re not following to a legalism bent because of a desire for control, which we all know. Well, maybe you don’t know. I’m just going to say it. Control is an illusion. The truth is, is that when we’re a believer and our eyes are open to the truth and the reality of this world, we understand who is truly in control and that we are to have self control and use that self control to surrender. To the Lord. Amen. And so I just I want to encourage slash, exhort, slash challenge all of us in this to recognize that and to have grace with people. Like, I look at this and I think, wow, there are how many people were potentially. That’s crazy to me that I could have.

Read that wrong or heard that wrong.

But I you know, I do think, though, that I asked myself, what was the draw? I asked myself, you know, I just I look at this and I go, wow, that’s just well, there.

Must have been there must have been some good aspects of it. We’re not backing it up. But but to have so many Christians involved, there must have been some information that was helpful to people. Well, I don’t know.

I think that there was yeah, I mean, it’s kind of one of those things where you can make assumptions. Right here we are speculating, making assumptions. We actually don’t have any idea what the draw was. We definitely don’t aren’t drawn to what we saw by any way, shape or form. But but in watching that, it showed us once again. Wow, See, look, there’s the ditch again. Like this is something that we all need to humbly recognize that because of humanity, people are easily influenced, even strong people. And we need to humbly ask God to protect us and be discerning and wise as serpents, gentle as doves, recognizing that we have a responsibility like you just read in James three one that that’s speaking to teachers. And yes, we are we have a platform that God has given us here. We take full responsibility for what we endorse, what we don’t endorse. And we are honest about it. In fact, we have gone to the level of where this scripture has been so convicting to Isaac and I, where I literally walked away from even endorsing a certain company that was selling products because what they were teaching on their website was in complete opposition to biblical truth, which was.

So which the the candid answer to that is it was 4 to 5000 a month that we really needed to support us to do full time ministry. But we’re not going to be enslaved by financial need. No. And do anything that would go against what is biblical truth. And we feel so important to represent the ministry well by not being involved in something that’s going wayward. And so we immediately dropped it. And, you know, and we just trust God in that with the finances and those things.

But and that’s just an example of like how much we are trying to walk out our faith with fear and trembling and understanding that like people are like watching and trying to, to look for wisdom and discernment. And I in no way want to make the assumption that anyone who’s potentially following me on social media, for example, those friends, I don’t necessarily know them in real life. I don’t know if they have a spiritual maturity and discernment ability to be able to discern between truth and wayward philosophies, like maybe I could. And so I feel responsible to not be taking them to the trough of false teaching, leaving them astray, just leaving them there alone to figure it out on their own. That seems irresponsible. And so that’s where my conviction was. And and that being said, we as parents need to recognize that like every parent, this scripture in James three one is talking to teachers. If you are a parent, you are a teacher and you will be held accountable for what you put in front of your children. And I guess that was kind of what was a little surprising. Some of the wisdom books they opened up in the docu series and they took pictures of different things that they showed. Right. And there were certain teachings on modesty and circle. This circle the the part on this dress that is immodest, I think, was what they said. And and then.

Pictures of whole coliseum with everybody dressed the.

Same. Yeah. I mean it just definitely like in my opinion. Okay here’s my opinion based upon what I saw in the docu series that is training a legalism and critical spirit in kids regarding modesty. And when it comes to the topic of modesty, listen, there is a whole spectrum of modesty, and it really comes down to heart intentions. And the truth is, there’s always going to be somebody that’s more modest or more conservative and someone that’s more liberal and less in your opinion. And the truth is, is that is a disputable issue in to a certain degree. Obviously, like pornography is a real problem. I think that this is a obviously an issue that has affected even the Duggars. And that was something that they talked about regarding their oldest son and and the sin that is there, the sin that so rampant. And that is an issue that is literally destroying the culture of the world is pornography and the idolization of sexual sin. And it is running rampant. It is not okay. It is it is adultery. And so I do see that there is a connection with modesty and pornography and sin. But but. Can I just say for a second, though, to go to a legalistic extreme like what we saw witnessed in this docu series, that that leads us to a place of going. Listen, guys, the point is, is there’s a ditch on either side. You can easily go to the legalistic side or you can go to the side over here that’s like, oh, whatever goes, who cares? And and then they’re tempted by pornography and addicted to it and objectifying women or children or whatever. Right? So that would be the other ditch. Yeah.

So we definitely saw that. I think, you know, patriarchy run amok is one thing I noticed. And patriarchy is a word. It’s a normal word, but most places it’s used is very, very negative. And I understand because there’s been a good number of men who have lorded over their families, who have been overly controlling, who have not allowed a voice to their wives and have not had a sense of teamwork in their marriage. And I think that those families have been hurt by that. I think that when I look at, yes, we believe in biblical gender roles in marriage and, you know, things we do and so forth. But I look at leadership the way Jesus showed by example, leadership, which is servant leadership. I look at marriage as the most powerful team that exists. If it’s approached correctly for impact and for good. I look at being a husband as how can I uplift and encourage and help the people in my family be the best that they can be following after whatever God has them. And I look at our marriage as something not to control, but instead to navigate with my wife in leadership. Yes, but fully inclusive of her input, her opinions, her wishes, her gifts.

She has the gift of discernment. And that has been so amazing. It’s kept us out of trouble when maybe I was thinking about going a direction and she gave me a warning and I listened to it. And then later we’re like, Whoa, we dodged a bullet right there. And there’s times there have been times where I failed to listen to her and the bullet hit us. And I think it’s just really, really important men that we’re not falling into the ditch of lording over, over controlling and these kinds of things. I think of patriarchy, too. On the negative side of it that can happen is, is that sons and daughters are are not only raised differently but academically differently. And I don’t think that’s fair. I think I think sons and daughters should be raised academically the same. You know, and I think that it’s super important that, you know, there might be some nuance differences based on their gifts and passions and being a female and looking forward to getting married and these kinds of things. That’s beautiful. It’s wonderful. Um, but at the same time, let’s.

That’s more like life skills even I just think about but you know that specific topic if you guys are interested in more in what we believe regarding that because that’s a huge conversation. I think we actually talked about it in the very last podcast that we did last week on our history and homeschooling, and we talked about this specific our opinion on how we’ve raised our sons and daughters through homeschooling. And and I think that, you know, as far as patriarchy goes, I just want to speak something to what Isaac is sharing right now. Being married to Isaac, I have never once felt like he didn’t ever appreciate or genuinely desire my input. And I’ve heard him countless times on the podcast, but also in our parenting Mentor program exhort other men. Hey, listen guys, let’s make it easy for our wives to want us to lead. Let’s make it easy for our kids to want us to lead, to want to follow us, to to trust us in that kind of regard. And I would say for sure that that I mean, neither of us are perfect. I mean, you got two centers here in marriage and you guys know what that’s about. It’s very sanctifying. I am a very strong, opinionated woman. You guys know that from listening to the podcast. And I do have dreams. I have dreams of of things that I felt God calling me to do for his glory, for his kingdom. When I was a young woman and Isaac and I met, I wanted to be a missionary. He knew that about me. But I also had to rethink what the Ministry of Marriage and being a mom could be.

And that totally changed my life. And I’m thankful it did, because God’s plan is so much better than mine ever could be. But there’s one verse that specifically really sums up what we believe marriage, biblical marriage should look like that patriarchy leaves out. And that’s in Mark ten, verse eight, which says, Well, I’m going to start in seven. It says, Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh. What, therefore God has joined together? Let man not separate or let not man separate. And. This is a quote from the Old Testament, Genesis chapter two, I think it’s verse 24. It’s also mentioned again in Ephesians and in other gospels. Please go look those up if you want to. It’s very encouraging. But let me ask you this question. Here’s really the test of if you are a patriarchal man or if you are in one of those relationships that maybe is leaning towards a ditch the wrong way. When you first got married, there were things that you appreciated that you were attracted to in one another, that you valued, that you were, that you looked up to, that you admired in one another, that helped you to fall in love, if you will. Right? I know that when I met Isaac, I saw his gift of speaking and people were drawn to him. And I just thought, Oh, man, if this guy, I was like, as a believer, so many people could come to Christ because he’s so good at communicating clearly and he’s calm and people are receptive.

And I just saw that gifting in him. And and I think likewise, he saw the Holy Spirit moving in me to be passionate about the great Commission and sharing the gospel. And so us working together has been a true like we’ve both grown, we’ve both challenged each other in the in the areas where we were maybe weaker or not as sharp. And we work really well together as a team. But but this is the thing in a patriarchal relationship, you’re not going to see the husband doing that, valuing that gifting in a wife anymore. You’re going to see it more as he’s the guy, the control man, if you will, that makes all the decisions without talking to his wife, without searching out Intel or wanting conversation, wanting advice. You’re going to see men without accountability. This is huge, guys. And that that truly, if there was something that kind of summed up what we saw in this docu series, it definitely that is something that we saw was that there is no accountability for these men and that’s not okay. They like in marriage, we have accountability equally between the two of us. I go to Isaac when I think he’s struggling with something and I’ll like hold him accountable and he does the same thing. To me. That’s the sanctifying growing, spiritually growing part of marriage. And if you don’t have it going both ways, guess what? Then both people are going to stagnate in their spiritual growth of two.

Becoming one is we got two minds now that we can benefit from. Right. And two different perspectives. And God made men and women completely equal in value in a marriage with some different roles. And he has a plan and we believe in that plan. But we need to approach that with good leadership. And my wife is an incredible leader too, actually. Thanks you. What is leadership? Yeah, it is influence. She has so much influence in our family. I’m not there a good amount of time because I’m working right. So I am so thankful she’s leading and influential and can handle things and so forth. And I want to encourage that. I want to encourage respect for my wife, with my children. But if they were to see me not respecting my wife, it would be hard for them not to respect. And I think aspects of the patriarchy movement can create this challenge for wives to even lead their children, their children. And we don’t want that.

No, not at all. You know, as we were watching the docu series, there were just a lot of concerning things for sure. The patriarchy was definitely a topic. And and we’re obviously just brushing the tip of the iceberg on this topic. Maybe we’ll do an episode on the podcast that’s just about patriarchy. Maybe we’ll do one that’s just about Quiverfull, which is the next thing that we saw. Yeah. And and obviously stereotyping. I mentioned this in other podcasts as well. Stereotyping, speculating, assumptions are really, really dangerous, right? And one of the things that we have definitely experienced is people assuming that we agree with the Quiverfull movement simply because we have nine children ourselves. And I would say we believe what the Bible says. We believe that children are a blessing from the Lord. They’re an eternal inheritance. We believe that God knows every person before they’re even created in their mother’s womb. That’s Psalm 139, so go read Psalm 139. Also read Psalm 127. But I will say that within the Quiverfull movement they’ve taken what is scriptural and there’s an element of stretching a very basic belief that I’m sure that all of us Christians would agree children are a blessing, but there’s a stretch that goes into a ditch that goes to an area we don’t agree with. And and that ditch is things like it’s a command to have as many children as possible or that you need to have a quiver filled with a certain amount of children. I’ve heard people talk about a 12 is a number of heard people talk about nine as a number or seven as a number. I’m sorry.

I don’t believe that the Bible actually has a number and that. Is a stretch of scripture that’s adding to scripture. That’s not just taking what Scripture says. There’s also the element of sin. And there this is a very dangerous ditch, one that I have a personal testimony in that I knew people that were getting influenced by that specific movement many years ago, and it was challenging because I, I really felt a heaviness that, man, am I in sin if I am not having more children like all the time? But then I also felt this call to take care of my body as a holy temple and I needed some time to heal in between having children because I was getting so sick and even hemorrhaging and just all of these things like, I just want to say to you, if that is you, my heart goes out to you because that ditch that that overwhelming extra biblical or not even not even biblical in any kind of way agenda is very heavy. And it’s a bondage because it’s not truth. What is truth? We need to go back to what the word says and we need to have peace and comfort in the truth and knowing what it is confidently and being able to not just take on a new yoke of slavery. Right. The Bible talks about like how Jesus died for us to be free. And sometimes these thoughts, these teachings that are extra become a bondage that really hold people captive to where they’re in anxiety all the time, worried about whether they’re in sin or whether they’re going to be sick. Well, it.

Becomes this peer pressure to in certain groups where if you’re not prescribing to this exact belief that you’re kind of not included in the same way. And I think that’s really, really dangerous. And as men, we’re to protect our brides. And sometimes that includes waiting or not having more children because there’s a real danger for them medically or something like that.

To even think of the scripture that talks about living with your wife in an understanding way, like if your wife is hemorrhaged or she’s just had a baby. Like not anyways, I could go off on this. Maybe we’ll do another podcast on it. But probably the point is, is the docu series didn’t go deep into the Quiverfull movement. The reason why we had to bring it up is because obviously the Duggars have branded that movement, by the way, that they’ve lived their lives. So that comes up in conversation, right? And and so we just wanted to make sure that you guys knew where we stood on it and that we’re just trying to walk biblically and that we we love our children. We never had an agenda to have a big family. We prayed about each child. There were we.

Were not around big families when we were younger, married.

We didn’t come from big.

Families plan on having big families. It’s just something that we were prayerful. And one thing I will say is we decided early on that we would not stop because of selfish reasons and like, okay, I want to travel, so I’m going to stop having kids or I want to be able to afford more things so I’m going to have less kids and these kinds of things. And so we decided never to let any of those reasons stop us from having more children. We encourage other people to, but at the same time, we’re never making judgments about other people, because what we’ve always said is God has a unique plan for every family and it’s between them and God to work that out.

That’s right. And I’ll be quiet. I’m going to be frank. It’s frankly none of our business. And so when it comes to there are certain things that it’s like, wow, it’s amazing to me what this social world has really. It makes it seem like everybody should have an opinion about everybody’s life or what they’re doing, and that’s just not the truth. And so if you need to have some freedom, I hope that that’s encouraging to you.

But we do believe children are a blessing and we are so glad we had our nine children and we love every single one of them. We can’t imagine not having any of them. They’re just incredible.

They for sure have been. Yeah, it’s it’s such a huge blessing. And we love the fruit that we’re seeing, but we also don’t take it for granted. And we’re working hard and and we’re loving well and loving long all the things.

Want to take a moment and give you something for free if you haven’t got it already is the date Night one sheet. It is a beautiful document you can download that will have some key questions on it for your date night to just get in alignment about what’s most important for your family. No matter what time of year, it’s always important to recalibrate. You can get that by going to courageous Parenting.com and subscribing to our mailing list. Also, you can get all of our show notes and everything at Courageous Parenting.com. And I also just want to share real quick about the Parenting Mentor program. So many families are being transformed by going through this. It’s the six week self-paced program with live engagement from us and even direct interaction. So if you want to join us, here’s a little bit more about it. You can find out more at courageous Parenting.com.

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We now have a game plan to how we want to raise our children. We have so many answers to the questions that have been in our mind.

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So, you know, the next thing we wanted to talk about is the oppression of women. Yeah, it was definitely a heavy, heavy thing. This goes into where we both want to just if you are listening, you were part of the Bill Gothard movement at all, or even if you weren’t, but you were part of a patriarchal family and you experienced oppression or abuse. We are like, our hearts go out to you. Um, we finished watching the docu series like Friday night, I think it was, and Saturday I was pretty emotional. It was heavy, like just listening to Jill Duggar’s testimony and the things that they went through and and seeing how even as adults, there has been, in my opinion, some really wrong parenting choices, not that they’re parenting them anymore, but just unsupportive and things like that just based upon her testimony, of course. And but then just hearing all the other people that were sharing, there were both men and women sharing in. It’s what makes me sick is that. A lot of them are walking away from Jesus or they’re walking a fine line over on a on a wayward ideology side. It’s pretty obvious. And there’s a lot of anger which, you know, anger and having a hard time forgiving.

I can’t imagine having walked through what they walk through and trying to forgive that. Like, it’s easy to say forgive because that’s a biblical thing to say. But doing is a completely different thing. And I think they were brave. I think it was a good conversation starter because people really need to be wise about what they’re doing. I think it’s an important thing for all parents to reflect on and go, what are the things that my kids are going to remember when they grow up and am I walking above reproof? I know I ask myself that all the time. I know that Isaac and I talk about asking ourselves and asking the kids, How can we be a better mom? How can we be a better dad? And we talk to each other that how can I be a better wife? How can I be a better husband? These are questions that we ask often of ourselves, but being introspective, some people don’t have that ability, and so we want to just those are simple questions you can ask to help bring introspection.

I think, too, it can be very easy. The culture of your home becomes religious versus relationship with God. And we really want to stir up a culture of a heart for God and knowing God and experiencing God versus a religion of rules and all these things and checking off boxes and judging anyone that doesn’t have a checked box. I think it’s really important. We want to raise up children that have a real relationship with God and heart for God. We parents can never save their children. That’s a mystery of God. It’s an amazing thing. But we can point them to Jesus. We can invite them. I don’t think it’s a great way to do it through just religious rules and legalism. A great way to do it is they see parents on fire for the Lord, reading their Bible, praying, having faith and so forth, but also intentional parents that are digging in one on one in deeper conversation and asking and creating a space where children feel comfortable sharing the awkward, the sin, the doubt, the unbelief. Because if you’re not having those conversations, then you might have created some walls unintentionally that really prevent those candid conversations where they’re struggling with pornography or something like that. And if you can’t have those conversations, then it could lead into something worse, as we see in the series.

Another thing that kind of came up from the docu series was the topic of arranged marriage. And and we just wanted to speak to that specifically because we have known people who have joked about it with little children and things like that. And we actually want to warn all parents from even joking about it because this is a real issue among specific groups of people. And that became really obvious watching the docu series. And not only that, but we’ve had people that we knew in our past that approached us when we had some teenagers just even saying, Hey, have you thought about this person for this person? And we literally rebuked them.

I went to to to to one person and just said, don’t ever talk to any of my kids about that idea. We don’t believe in that idea. It’s not biblical and we don’t want anybody talking to them about it. That’s it was a serious conversation. This is a big deal. And the reason that conversation was coming up with others is because there was a there was this thought of how are we going to how are our children going to find like minded people in this crazy world? And while I understand that statement, it’s missing a trust in God factor. Yes, it’s missing the the faith that you believe God has created that person for your child, for all nine of our children, we have complete peace about it. We don’t need to be overly meddling in that area. We need to walk strong. We have taught I have shared with my daughters that. And I know you have, too, Angie, that do the things you’re passionate about, learn the things you want to learn, get a job, do these different things. And in the process of doing those things, you’re passionate about God in the right timing. He’s going to bring that person and you don’t slow down your life, don’t wait around, go do the things because you’re becoming more you’re growing and you yourself are preparing yourself for that person God has for you.

You know, In addition, your life doesn’t begin when you get married. I mean, a new season in your life begins, but your life doesn’t begin. There’s a purpose for your life before you’re married. There’s a purpose for your life when you’re a child. And as parents, we need to teach our kids what that is. That gives them such an important like everybody needs to have purpose in life. And I, I shudder to think that kids are literally, like unhappy and sad and depressed because they think that their life isn’t started until they get married. And then they feel like fearful that the person’s going to come around. No, no, no. No. No. No. Instead, you pour the truth into your kids and you have good conversations with both your boys and your girls, and you talk about what what are the most important traits to look for in a spouse, right? Someone loves the Lord is the most important decision they’re ever going to make in their life. It should be. The thing that you fall in love with is their love for God, their loyalty to God, their faithfulness to God. It should be their desire to want to obey him. Like those are the things that, like, you can’t change somebody’s heart. You can’t make somebody else do those things, believe those things, have those convictions. So if they have them, that alone is like the most important thing. Second thing is, do you respect them? Are they the same person in private that they are in public? Can you follow them? That is a good question for the girls. Right? Like can you follow their leadership? And then the third thing is, do they have a teachable heart? Because this is the thing, no one ever arrives. No one, no one knows it all. But we all have to have a teachable heart and have that attitude of humility, of wanting to grow and learn.

Do you are you attracted to them? Do you love them? Right. Yeah.

So, I mean, there’s just so many aspects to this. So anyway, we could go on and on again about that specific topic, but we wanted you guys to know where we stand on it. But we also felt a really strong desire to warn you not to even joke about it because you are literally going down a road that number one, is not biblical, and number two is setting your kids up for some serious hurt and pain.

You don’t want to create awkwardness between those relationships either as they get a little bit older and these kinds of things. So that’s really important. But really, legalism is the ditch. You have the ditch of legalism, you have the road, and then you have the other ditch of moral relativism. We want to be on this road. And we saw in this just a lot.

You want to be on the biblical road.

You want to be on the biblical road. Yeah. So we just saw this legalism and thinking about legalism, is it really snuffs out the love of God. Over time it becomes so focused on the things we’re doing, but not on the relationship we’re building and drawing close to God. It’s really becomes part of human strength and self-discipline, which self-discipline is important, but versus God working through us and helping us and these kinds of things and pressure to conform to a detailed perspective of lifestyle things and overly controlling things. There was a warning in Revelations. There’s there’s talks about the seven churches in Revelations. One of those churches is the Church of Ephesus. In Revelation two, there’s a big warning. This warning has to do with this topic. I believe I’ll start at the beginning to the angel of the church in Ephesus. Write the words of him who holds the seven stars in the right hand walks among the seven Golden Lampstands. I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance. So good things and how you cannot bear with those who are evil but but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not and found them to be false. Okay, so that’s.

Kind of what’s been happening through.

This. Okay, good. Okay, Now, verse chapter two, verse three. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. Okay, good. Here it is. The warning. But I have this against you that you have abandoned the love you had at first.

Right? Yeah. And that’s we did see that happening actually in the docu series. We saw that with some of the tests. People were giving testimonies that they were abandoning Christianity or turning against it because of the pain that they had walked through and that just that really like it actually makes it stirred up not just a sadness in me for those people, but also like an anger towards a ministry or a person that was calling themselves a Christian and then totally abusing their authority, that authority that they were in, and in such a way where people would walk away from God, that’s just not okay.

I also look at any any movement, any group, any ministry that is becoming really rules based. The likelihood is over time, that is, they’re going to start to lose that first love of Christ and relationship with God in the gospel, which is really what matters, right? What saves us right. So, so.

Important. Yeah.

So, you know, being weary, being I keep thinking back to James three one as parents, what is the warning that we can take away from this? Right. There are so many trigger issues potentially through this docu series, but what’s the ultimate warning? What’s the most important point here in the podcast? As we’re talking, of course, we want you guys to know where we stand on these topics. Of course we want to be transparent with you. But I also think to myself as a teacher, being a parent myself, but also having this podcast, I want to encourage all of us that we need to be aware of who we are allowing to influence our children. We need to use discernment. That’s kind of an obvious thing here. But but I look at how many people were like flooding into these. I mean, in the docu series there were videos of amphitheaters, like huge stadiums filled with people all dressed the same, all singing on stage and playing their musical instruments and and even like doing different performance pieces of different kinds. And it it it was very clear to me that there was a conformity thing happening where people were conforming and all dressing the same. It reminds me of like a private school, right? Where they have a dress code, which of course I don’t hear anybody out on podcasts blasting private schools for dress codes anyways. But. But it did seem odd to me. It seemed cultish in a sense. And I think that that that word was definitely used in the docu series to describe what was going on.

I think that as as people who are going to be aware and alert and awake like the Bible commands us to be as followers, recognizing there are false teachers, There are there are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Right. There are people who will get a seared conscience that will walk away, that will this is the reality of the world that we live in today. And we need to be on high alert as parents, as teachers, to make sure that those people are not influencing our children or abusing our kids. Right. Because that’s what was just happening. And the only way to do that is to truly know people. But even with that, like it takes walking with people and sometimes it takes walking with people for some time to see the yellow flag, the yellow flag, and then all of sudden you go red flag and you go And like, I think that that could have potentially been the case with what was happening with some of these families. Um, but, you know, ultimately this is a warning sign for all of us to not become prideful and go, oh, we didn’t fall for that. No, but instead go listen, this is potentially like the false ideologies. Wayward thinking is literally everywhere today. It may not look the same, but there are ditches on either side of the road on so many different topics. And we want to warn you guys against falling into those ditches. This is something that we’ve been passionate about for a really long time, this concept of legalism and rules and control. Well, I know.

When the Lord was calling us to start the podcast and the Parenting Mentor program at the same time, it was very clear like that was what we’re supposed to do. Never part of my plans, but I’m so glad we did it. It’s been an amazing experience and fruitful. But I really, you know, because I’d seen families where people lord over their families and stuff like that and always was wary of that and stayed away from that and these kinds of things. I just wanted to make sure there was differentiation. So every single live of every parenting program. 36 I think we’ve done now over the last four and a half years. At the very beginning, I’ve always said that we’ve never been part of the patriarchy movement. We’re not isolationist and we don’t believe in fear based parenting or teach it. And we stand by that. We’ve never been part of those things. And we’re yes, we’re conservative. Yes, we’re biblical. Yes, we’re we’re raising up and equipping children. To impact in the world and glorify the Father. We believe in the great commission. We believe in these things. But just because some of that might sound familiar to other movements doesn’t mean we’re part of the ditches in other movements. We just believe some of the same Christian things.

Sure. But it’s sad to see so many ministries falling to one ditch or another. I see like this thing online that used to be super conservative going wayward, right? And then you see this other thing falling in the legalism ditch and so forth. Our goal, we haven’t ever fallen in the ditch. Our goal is to stay on the road, pray for us. We pray that we never go in the ditch. If you see us go into the ditch, you actually see us do or say something that is unbiblical. Message us. Right? But you know, we have a lot of accountability and that’s important. And so the question is because well, you have so many children, we get this question, why? Why do ministry, if there’s such a big target on your back and you’re dealing with these challenges and so forth? Well, you know what God calls people to do all kinds of different things. He has He clearly called us to do this. It wasn’t something we’re hoping to do necessarily, or trying to do. It was something I feel like I was thrust into doing. And it is beautiful what has been happening so far. And we’re so excited because it literally impacts people.

Well, the testimonies of fruitfulness that families and marriages and different people have shared make it worth it. And so we love hearing those testimonies. And thank you for the reviews on Apple iTunes email.

It’s so.

Encouraging. It’s just it’s super, super encouraging to us. It keeps us going. But, you know, the truth is you do have to have a tough skin as well. And there are times where we have reevaluated. I’ll just be transparent. There are times where we’ve I, I would say I tend to be a little bit more soft to where I go. Yeah, but okay, we chose this. But did our kids choose this? And I and then we go back and we communicate with them and we ask them what they’re thinking, what they’re feeling. We want them to feel respected and they’re always behind us doing the ministry. It’s really encouraging.

I think if you if you’re following God and you lead well, the children would want to be part of something. But if you’re not leading well and you’re veering off into the ditch, then children will detect that and they will tell you if you ask and they feel comfortable sharing with you, which is for sure Do Yeah.

So we’re super thankful for that. But I definitely thought just, you know, when you were talking about huge target that came to my mind for sure. You know, we’re left with a huge question that we don’t know the answer to after watching the docu series.

It’s a massive question. It’s a question that the world is asking. I’ve looked at liberal publications that are writing about this docu series and Bill Gothard and so forth. The world is wondering, and even more so, Christians should be wondering and I think probably are now. But how did I don’t know what the numbers are. If it’s millions or hundreds of thousands of people get involved in something, well-intentioned people when the leader of it. Bill Gothard, has never been married and has no children.

And he’s just teaching on the.

Bible shares that we’re to look at the fruit. How do you know to trust something, test it with the Word of God and look at the fruit. And if you’re teaching on marriage and parenting. And giving prescriptive guidelines. You need to look at fruit now at the same time. I wasn’t in those shoes, so and I have a lot of grace and I. I just don’t know the answer to that. I’m sure there is an answer that there must have been valuable information because a lot of people went to.

I don’t know, maybe it was people that were endorsing it. I have no idea. But I know that for us, like immediately when we were just finding out about him, the very first thing when they said, well, he wasn’t married and he didn’t have kids, I literally was like a huge red flag. Never going to listen to that. Like, I mean, can you imagine going to hear this is actually really funny? I remember someone sharing this story with me that they went to. They were going to their church and their church was having a marriage seminar. And this this person that was going to go to the marriage seminar had been married like 40 years. And the people that were teaching the marriage seminar had barely been married a year. And she had the hardest time sitting and listening to it because there was no experience whatsoever. And it’s like one of those things where it’s like, Come on, let’s use discernment, please. And it just I think that that if you ever have a gut feeling where you go, well, why would they be teaching on this if they’ve never done it before? Like, okay, that’s logical. Use that critical thinking and that gut information and just act on it. Don’t don’t go there.

So there’s a lesson maybe out of this is who are you listening to that’s giving you prescriptive guidance that you don’t know if they have fruit or not or where it comes from. I think it’s important to be able be listening to people who are transparent and really have expertise that aligns with the Bible. But let’s not be overly critical of each other. Right? That’s another thing just coming out of this and watching.

How they were training in a critical spirit, that definitely was a huge thing that we talked about and we went, Whoa, because.

We don’t want to launch critical children. Right? And so let’s not be critical of each other about the size of our families, about our education choices, about.

Or think that our family is better because we have more children. Do you see how that’s a competitive spirit, a critical, competitive spirit that would come from. It’s prideful. And I think that there is an element there where you need to be careful about what spirit is actually in your children, and it starts with you because that is something that’s modeled, but really taking the rose tinted glasses off all the time, looking at you and your children and going, what is the spirit that I sense here? And then talking about it from a biblical perspective and saying, Hey, we can’t be this way.

And let’s not operate in fear or use fear as a parenting tactic. Let’s not isolate our children completely. Right? But from the world, but rather, while they’re in our homes, equip them to be able to navigate well while standing firm for biblical truths. So important.

Then one of the last things that we really wanted to talk about was this concept of disputable and indisputable issues, because we’re talking largely about how there’s ditches on either side of the road on all these different topics, right? And there’s many more topics. You could probably pick any issue today, and there could be ditches on either side of the road. And so as Christians, we have a responsibility to be leading our children in biblical truth and recognizing where those ditches are and trying to guard ourselves and our children from falling into them. And like I said, this is something that we’ve been passionate about for a long time. I wrote Redeeming Childbirth almost 11 years ago, and this is like literally the very first two chapters in the book, the Biblical Friendship Bible study, which we have available to churches now to go through. There’s an entire session chapter on the comparison trap and teaching on what are disputable and indisputable issues. What is Romans 14 teach about this, not imposing your your expectations and your standards that are not necessarily biblical. Maybe they are, um, godly, maybe they are holy. Maybe they are righteous standards, but are they biblical for you to be imposing them upon other people? Or is that an unrealistic thing to do? Is that being unbiblical actually to be expecting other people to eat what you eat, for example, or dresses, you dress or whatever? Right. And so this is an important conversation. Go read Romans 14 at the least. Please go read.

That. So let’s not disparage each other and cause division, right? You know the Bible. Paul talks about this all the time in the Bible. Yes. Let there not be division amongst you. Yes. And this is a warning. We’re going to go through a list really quick because we see divisions bubbling up right now in society amongst Christians. And one of those is Calvinism or not Calvinism.

I would say that this is I mean, we do we would say that we are not Calvinists, although there are some things that we agree with Calvinists on. Right. Yeah. So we.

Can still love.

Each other. Yes. And the indisputable things about Jesus, for example. Just think of the Apostles Creed. Like, you know, there’s some basic very tenet doctrines that we 100% agree with. But there are some things that we that we don’t fully 100% agree on. The tulip or the you know, like there are aspects of it we agree and disagree.

Yes. We’ve done.

Extensive.

Extensive research study on the whole Bible and all these things. And you know what? But we we love our Calvinist friends. You know what? And we just hope that Calvinists love us back, because I see a growing change in that. Right. And that’s not good homeschooling versus not right. How about open womb versus not traditional church versus home church?

Or what about homesteading versus not or hospital birth versus home birth versus water birth center like that That’s talked about in my book. What about dress, dress, modesty, right. Like there’s always going to be somebody that’s more conservative or less conservative than you there. Desantis versus Trump polity, ethics, politics. Are you you know, do you are you the type of person that you can’t be friends with someone unless they agree with you on? Absolutely. Every single political topic and every single doctrinal topic. I even think about like different things that are that are going around the church today. There’s the flat earth and the the round Earth. There’s there’s so many things that can create division.

Let’s focus on the gospel and growing stronger towards Jesus and equipping our children and discipling them. There’s so many important things that we need to spend our time on.

Totally, but in that we’re not saying like, ignore those issues. No, like you need to pursue what is the Bible say on those topics. You need to be knowledgeable in those topics. You need to teach your children on those topics. But creating division on these things that are these are the disputable things, right? To some degree. Obviously, like if you have your kids in a school system that is teaching the complete opposite of what you want, there’s some issue there. But the reason why we’re saying that this is something that is like unique to each family is because it’s different all over the world. It’s different all over every district.

Now, in all these things, we have our opinions, we have our family, our beliefs. And on the podcast we share our opinions and beliefs and we share biblical truth as well. But we don’t judge you if you have a different opinion on some of these lifestyle choices. Let’s not create division on that.

And I just want to like wrap up and share with you guys one more verse. It’s Colossians three, 12 through 15. This is such an encouraging word. It says, and this is something we should all do. This is truly wraps up like, okay, what’s the exhortation here? We’re going to look out for ditches, we’re going to pray for one another. We don’t want to have legalism and religious spirits in our home, but here we go. Colossians 312 says Put on. Then as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts. Are you putting on compassionate hearts for brothers and sisters who maybe went through this like that That hit? Watching the docu series. I had compassion in my heart for those people like it. It breaks you to a place of like if you’re able to put yourself in somebody else’s shoes and pray for them and pray for those who like they. Christ was misrepresented in their life and there was a spiritual abuse that happened there. And this is this is happening all over the world. It’s not just in this specific teaching or specific arena of Christianity. This kind of stuff happens all over the world, unfortunately.

And so we need to be praying for one another, put on compassionate hearts, kindness, humility. Again, just because you weren’t a part of it, just because we weren’t a part of it and we don’t necessarily know what was taught, we should not have pride in going well. I can’t believe that they fell for this and we didn’t. And thinking better of ourselves. And no, put on humility because pride comes before the fall, humility, meekness, patience bearing with one another. And if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other as the Lord has forgiven you. So you must also forgive. And you guys, above all these things, put on love which binds everything together in perfect harmony and let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts to which indeed you were called in one body and be thankful. Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing songs and hymns and spiritual songs with Thanksgiving in your hearts to God and whatever you do in word and deed do in the name of the Lord Jesus giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

Let’s let’s walk in love with one another. Let’s help each other and let’s let’s focus on the gospel and reaching out in his name and loving one another, loving one another, and taking care of our jurisdictions, you know, leading well within our family. Because the outflow. We want to be fruit. Good fruit.

That’s right. Thanks for joining us. See you next time. Hey, thanks for listening and being a part of the 10 Million Legacies movement. Go to be courageous ministry. Org For more biblically based resources Ways to switch where you spend your money that support the mission and information about the incredible be courageous app community for believers.

Also, we wanted to quickly tell you about our six week online parenting mentor program.

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This is an incredible self-paced program where we cover everything from tending to their hearts, handling obedience to overcoming mistakes most Christians are making. But more than that, it’s a supportive community. You’ll have access to our private group and the Be Courageous app, live webcasts and direct access to us.

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